tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post4448190467711820829..comments2024-01-15T02:19:13.716-08:00Comments on Fragments Of My Imagination: CrushMark Fieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-92021205892588033202022-03-16T16:15:35.257-07:002022-03-16T16:15:35.257-07:00Maybe that was it. I've had this blog for a lo...Maybe that was it. I've had this blog for a long time now and never had this issue, but it's good to know that it's possible.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-74289503981313006502022-03-16T15:27:45.099-07:002022-03-16T15:27:45.099-07:00I replaced the P word with sex worker. Some blogs ...I replaced the P word with sex worker. Some blogs have automatic filters for key words that the owner of the blog has no control over. It's cool. I copied the post to my word processor this time, in case it happens again.Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-33466187130974471652022-03-16T15:23:12.332-07:002022-03-16T15:23:12.332-07:00Excellent point. No idea what happened on the firs...Excellent point. No idea what happened on the first posting, but glad you were able to get it to stick this time.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-92130999922722467802022-03-16T15:09:36.908-07:002022-03-16T15:09:36.908-07:00The argument between Buffy vs. Dawn (and Spike) is...The argument between Buffy vs. Dawn (and Spike) is the classic argument between the deontologist vs. the consequentialist. Buffy is the former and Dawn is the latter. Only a consequentialist would argue that there is no difference between the soul and the chip. For practical purposes, sure. But only robots (and consequentialists) care only about the practical. As every deontologist knows, what matters is the heart. Actions are just a symptom. If the symptom is cut from its authentic cause, it becomes mechanical and meaningless (but still useful for cold practical purposes, which is not what dating is about). <br /><br />Angel was a good person before he ever committed a single good deed. The soul is the essence of everything. It's not enough to just mechanically perform good deeds (like a zombie) because you are forced to by a chip in your head. You must want to perform them because your heart is in it, thus making your actions a reflection of your authentic self. <br /><br />But there is nothing authentic about Spike. He does good deeds (or restrains himself from bad ones) because he's forced to. That's not impressive. He just has a leash in his head. But Buffy is an essentialist.<br /><br />Dating Spike, for her, would be like visiting a sex worker. It would be the same for all practical (mechanical) purposes, but it would all be fake in the only place where it matters - the heart (or soul). There is no difference between fake passion and the absence of passion (according to the deontologist). This is why men who make use of sex workers, who cannot understand the distinction or why anyone has a problem with it, must all be consequentialists, like Dawn.<br /><br />It's about practical image vs. ideological substance. Consequentialists care only about the image. Deontologists are about substance. Essence precedes existence. Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-89116874327185983872022-03-16T14:47:02.295-07:002022-03-16T14:47:02.295-07:00I don't know. I certainly didn't delete it...I don't know. I certainly didn't delete it. Try posting it again -- it's a very good point.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-48345214312610361832022-03-16T14:36:27.615-07:002022-03-16T14:36:27.615-07:00Why was my comment deleted?Why was my comment deleted?Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-32294482797385767392016-07-05T12:07:07.042-07:002016-07-05T12:07:07.042-07:00But we could assume that she knows , no? (based on...But we could assume that she knows , no? (based on the blood on Spike's lips, what Drusilla says and her own reaction). It's probably up for doubts and negotiations!<br /><br />I wonder how much it is love for Buffy or love for The Slayer that is the factor for that redemption quest. Another similarity with Angel... as you say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-53932252446466954452016-06-26T14:04:04.281-07:002016-06-26T14:04:04.281-07:00Welcome! I think you're key point is right: it...Welcome! I think you're key point is right: it's Spike's love for the Slayer which changes him. Buffy's failure (refusal?) to slay him after this episode seems to me explicable only on the assumption that his love/obsession for her created the space for moral development. Had she known that he fed from the girl after Dru killed her, I'm not sure she'd have let that sway her judgment. Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-88583249011484421942016-06-26T12:24:23.692-07:002016-06-26T12:24:23.692-07:00My first comment on this site! I just re-watched t...My first comment on this site! I just re-watched this episode this weekend after discovering the Buffy fanfiction, community, discussions and these blogs after a first re-watch two years ago, and I have to say this episode just surprises and mesmerizes me. None of the characters' reactions makes sense to me - except maybe Dawn. If she represents what you say she does (and maybe part of the fanbase in that instance)she finds Spike cool and she is just very naive about it all. The episode demonstrates just that. But apart from her, Xander just laughs about it! (As metaphorical heart, I guess maybe it's a laugh of unbelieving and ill-at-easiness). While Joyce and Willow react with horror when they're usually the ones quite ok with Spike. As "spirit", Willow's reaction probably speaks to Buffy's fear that this kind of love/ obsession would turn negative, abusive - cf. Angelus- and their point of view is kind of proven in the episode. But it misses the big part of it: Skipe's reaction. Why doesn't he follow Dru? Why doesn't the chip work when he drinks - even if the girl is dead, it is still weird to me-? It just shows then the chip in itself might have been the trigger for the changes (might) but it wouldn't be enough on itself to change his path. It's the love for the slayer that does. So then why doesn't Buffy dust Spike? The blood is very visible on the corner of his lips and she seems afraid (probably echoing the words of Dawn earlier). Why doesn't she bother to also follow Dru who killed loads of people on that train? The only character we don't know his opinion on this is Giles (the mind), but he did make it clear in season 4 - that it could be the opportunity for Spike to do good. And I guess that might be why Buffy doesn't dust him, though it's not super clear to me. <br />This episode really leads to loads of questions and does answer some but they can be very much misleading. I think that contrary to what Buffy says, she recognises that he has changed - but without a soul it will never be enough. And as the slayer, in a way Spike has become her responsibility... though she negates it at the end by willing him out of her life. <br />So I'm not too sure about that conclusion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-33195306342897745972014-04-06T12:50:30.724-07:002014-04-06T12:50:30.724-07:00Interesting question. Until you asked, I hadn'...Interesting question. Until you asked, I hadn't considered it. It works perfectly well, so I don't see why not.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-82536463607251629772014-04-06T12:47:53.110-07:002014-04-06T12:47:53.110-07:00Do you still see Dru as a representation of Buffy&...Do you still see Dru as a representation of Buffy's id at this point? I know she hasn't appeared on the series in quite some time (since Becoming 2?), but if you still see her that way it's interesting that Buffy's desire was almost killed when Spike offered to stake Dru, but ultimately lives to see another day.<br /><br />--Allison (I've got to make an account so I stop commenting as anonymous!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-10616740335409465312014-04-06T07:06:46.715-07:002014-04-06T07:06:46.715-07:00I think the reaction of viewers depends a LOT on w...I think the reaction of viewers depends a LOT on when they began watching. Those who started later tend to prefer the later episodes. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it does seem generally true.<br /><br />That's a good point about the way Spike's dressed. I'm sure it's not accidental.<br /><br />SPOILERS FOR S3<br /><br />I'm less sure the comparison to the Mayor accurately reflects Buffy's feelings. She had no personal interaction with him until Choices. While she knew he was a black hat, she only found out he wasn't human after Willow took the pages from the books of Ascension in that episode.<br /><br />A better comparison would be Faith. Buffy came to dislike Faith quite a bit, and to show it openly, but Faith gave her some good reasons to do so. I'd say she treated Spike more like she treated Faith, though she was willing to give Faith more chances because of the soul.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-16380292621505608282014-04-06T06:16:10.204-07:002014-04-06T06:16:10.204-07:00Minor amendment to my post above- when I said Buff...Minor amendment to my post above- when I said Buffy doesn't seem to actively dislike the Mayor as she does Spike, maybe a better way of putting it is to say she just seems to have to work much harder to "prove" she's disgusted by/dislikes Spike?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-35261008403350277152014-04-06T05:46:06.516-07:002014-04-06T05:46:06.516-07:00I just re-watched this episode and don't have ...I just re-watched this episode and don't have much to add to these great comments above. I started watching Buffyy during S6 and then worked my way back. While I have since watched the series straight through, I think this is why I was always much more interested/invested in the Buffy/Spike dynamic vs. Buffy/Angel. There's a scene in AtS where Cordy and Wesley do a fantastic, hilarious, and spot-on impression of how overly dramatic Bangel tended to be (the episode escapes me). Also in agreement with CM's comment about The Zeppo.<br /><br />To paraphrase Spike, it's like the writers wouldn't even give the fans a crumb when it came to Spuffy. Buffy is often spiteful toward him, and while it's not entirely undeserved, the way she treats him in S5 (which I would say is worse than she treats him in S4), doesn't seem in line with her personality and experiences to this point. Buffy is not a mean-spirited or spiteful person. Even when she's fighting Big Bads, she's often punning/engaging in banter. She doesn't seem to actively dislike, say, the Mayor, the way she does Spike. I think this is proof that she does have complicated feelings for Spike, and IS afraid this is an indication that there is something dark or "wrong" with her.<br /><br />Finally, I found the change in wardrobe for Spike to be very telling. When he's trying to have a friendly, normal conversation with Buffy at the Bronze, he's wearing a different (still leather) coat, and the rest of the outfit is very Riley-esque...and here again is an instance of Buffy being rather mean to him for no real reason other than what may be internal struggles with her own feelings. Spike, as usual, takes the rejection poorly, which to me is a reminder that just because chip doesn't equal conscience, he's still struggling with issues of identity. Then he engages with Drusilla, ties the girls up, etc...all back in his Big Bad leather duster.<br /><br />--Allison<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-60657995024716627652012-08-31T20:38:33.220-07:002012-08-31T20:38:33.220-07:00I just saw your follow up.
SPOILERS FOR S7
I th...I just saw your follow up. <br /><br />SPOILERS FOR S7<br /><br />I think that being on the opposite side of the moral divide is pretty critical here.<br /><br />Anya's comment about Buffy being "given" her power really bugged me in light of Get it Done.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-80346637021861197432012-08-31T20:31:51.145-07:002012-08-31T20:31:51.145-07:00It's an open point, I think, whether demons ha...It's an open point, I think, whether demons have souls (special demon souls, one would assume). In The Harvest Giles says that "The books tell the last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed, infected by the demon's soul." I'm not at all sure that's consistent with what we're told later, nor if it's true for other demons.<br /><br />In light of the importance given to Angel's human soul, I'm inclined to think that demons don't have one. They may have a demon soul, but not a human one. I therefore think that Anyanka was unsouled.<br /><br />All that is just logic, not text, so I think a reasonable person could take the opposite view.<br /><br />If you don't mind, I'll talk about your spoiler points in detail when we get to those episodes. It's hard to fit everything in to this comment box.<br /><br />Heh to your comment about The Zeppo.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-75695962043141331862012-08-31T20:26:20.773-07:002012-08-31T20:26:20.773-07:00CONTINUED SPOILERS
Another thought about Anya: Sh...CONTINUED SPOILERS<br /><br />Another thought about Anya: She kind of mirrors Buffy's own struggle with maintaining her humanity and sense of self while being imbued with mystical demon energy to perform a deadly, sworn duty. Their jobs just fall on different sides of the moral debate. I don't agree with everything Anya says about Buffy's job in S7, but I think it comes from her own self-doubt...or, at least, provides insight into Buffy's psyche, if viewed metaphorically. Neither one "earned" their power; it was given to them. Naturally, Anya's viewpoint, especially in Empty Places, must also be colored somewhat by jealousy and spite. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13550060758900308947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-79210124075321456042012-08-31T20:11:45.916-07:002012-08-31T20:11:45.916-07:00I'm not convinced that Anyanka truly lacked a ...I'm not convinced that Anyanka truly lacked a soul. Perhaps she merely had a demon "overlay." Or perhaps she just became less human-like over the last 1000 years. I like the suggestion above that Anya is like a foreigner in a strange land. The thing is that she never really fit in with most of society to begin with.<br /><br />SEASON 6 & 7 SPOILERS<br /><br />Consider her remorse in Selfless. She was a vengeance demon again, but she was having trouble doing her job. And that's how I see what she does: as a job. She's given extra power to do the job, of course, which just enables her already vengeance-prone personality to occasion terrific violence and mayhem. Note, too, that she doesn't directly kill people with her own hands, and she generally feels justified in her actions. So, can she be called a killer in the same way we describe vampires? I think that, just as was the danger with Willow in S6, she may have damaged her soul through her acts of callous revenge. Also like Willow, we see her struggle with the balance of power and control (hey! another hammer reference), especially once she decides to forge her own path. At that point, she has to learn how to find her own power center again--without magic or demon strength. <br /><br />And then, there is Spike. He's one of my favorite tragic and comic characters of the series (maybe in all of television). I was never a shipper, but I do find his arc with Buffy more interesting than Angel's. Xander's perspective of Bangel in The Zeppo pretty much says it all for me. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13550060758900308947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-41509840072029970542012-08-30T19:21:57.726-07:002012-08-30T19:21:57.726-07:00Per Ivana's second comment, I've deleted h...Per Ivana's second comment, I've deleted her original one and am re-posting it here with a spoiler warning. Thanks for noticing the lack of a warning, Ivana, and no problem.<br /><br />FWIW, I agree with you on the proper goal of the writing.<br /><br />SPOILERS FOR COMICS S8<br /><br />That's funny, because it was the complete opposite for me - I love that scene between Buffy and Spike in comic issue 8.37. It was so layered and wonderful and very, very shippy, with UST and suppressed feelings and misunderstandings, what with Buffy having romantic/sexual fantasy about Spike (with an entire conversation all in her head, ending with her daydreaming of them kissing and making love) while he was talking about something else, completely oblivious, and then convinced she must have been fantasizing about Angel. Whereas everything between Buffy and Angel in season 8 was just horrible and makes Crush looks like a beautiful Valentine episode - especially those pages and pages of really unsexy, ridiculous-looking sex, which was both dubious consent and universe-destroying, not to mention near character-assassinating. The only thing that destroyed Buffy/Angel even more in season 8 is the obviously satirically written "romantic" scene in 8.36 ("this is the bestest, weirdest, bestest day of my life"). I can't imagine why anyone would want for their ship what Bangel got in season 8. The relationship wasn't just portrayed as terribly destructive, but also as hollow and based on misguided illusions about destined love, and was made the subject of really vicious satire (I don't know how anyone can see the Whedon-written issues in the Last Gleaming arc as anything other than that). Season 8 convinced me that Joss has for some reason started to really dislike Bangel while he prefers Spuffy by a country mile, so I wasn't surprised when he recently said Spuffy is his favorite out of Buffy's relationships.<br /><br />As for the idea of being "jerked around", I don't see jerking around, I see an amazing story. But then, I wonder if I'm really a shipper; I am clearly invested in the relationship and the characters, but I am a fan of the show first, the characters second, and the relationships third; my primary interest in a ship is "is it a great story" and "does it show the feelings the characters have for each other and their dynamic in an artistically satisfying way" rather than "do the characters get to kiss/have sex/live happily ever after". I suspect this is also how a good writer thinks; I don't think that Joss' primary concern should be "am I keeping this or that shipper group happy" but "am I writing a great story". For this Spuffy shipper (?), the show was incredibly satisfying.<br /><br />Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-11753165336859034992012-08-30T19:16:43.588-07:002012-08-30T19:16:43.588-07:00I generally agree with your comment here. The nuan...I generally agree with your comment here. The nuance I'd give is the middle paragraph of my spoiler portion. <br /><br />Anya's lack of remorse was always a major problem for me too.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-63096609537262432742012-08-30T18:02:49.583-07:002012-08-30T18:02:49.583-07:00I should have put a SPOILER FOR THE COMICS warning...I should have put a SPOILER FOR THE COMICS warning - but I can't edit the post. (Or delete it.)Ivanahttp://boot-the-grime.livejournal.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-77064818510070660572012-08-30T18:00:57.421-07:002012-08-30T18:00:57.421-07:00But Angel wasn't "simply restrained from ...But Angel wasn't "simply restrained from killing" by having a soul forced on him. Nothing was restraining him from killing if he wanted to. Soul doesn't do that. Soul, in Buffyverse, is conscience. Angel didn't get his conscience by choice; but he stopped killing out of his own choice, because he felt it was wrong. He also felt guilty for the crimes he committed in the past. This is not Alex's case; it's the opposite of it.<br /><br />By having a chip placed in his head, Spike was merely physically restrained/conditioned not to kill. It had nothing to do with him feeling that killing people is wrong; he didn't express any remorse in season 4 or so far in season 5. He could see that an action of his might upset Buffy or Dawn, but he didn't see the actions themselves as wrong, and he lacked empathy for any of his victims - or generally; he might be able to care for a select few people, but he still thought the pictures of starving children were funny. Spike was not "good" because not killing people wasn't a moral choice he had made - and, like Alex DeLarge, he was treated as an animal in a muzzle and not as a being who can make moral choices. This is the crucial difference between the chip and the soul. Angel's soul made him a moral person (i.e. a person who had a conscience and moral compass; it doesn't mean that he always made great moral choices). Having a soul (conscience) doesn't make you automatically good; it just gives you the opportunity to make moral choices for yourself. Spike was, at this point, unable to grasp this higher form of morality; right and wrong were, for him, a matter of punishment and reward.<br /><br />While I don't agree with Fury's views that he used to express in interviews, Buffy was completely right to equate Spike with a "serial killer in prison": he wasn't reformed, just restrained. <br /><br />(So why did I like the idea of Spuffy at this point? Because I have a thing for challenging, edgy, risky storylines and relationships, and I saw a realm of possibilities in what they could do with this pairing - in addition to the chemistry which I saw since season 2.)<br /><br />Now, Anya... Anya is a whole different story, because she never actually shows remorse for her past crimes and still talks about them with fondness - she's no different than Spike, except for technically being human. And I'm afraid that the mythology falls apart when it comes to her. The writers couldn't even agree if she had a soul as a vengeance demon or not (Fury and Drew Goddard gave opposite answers to that question when asked in interviews).Ivanahttp://boot-the-grime.livejournal.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-71345588634168978632012-08-30T17:42:07.621-07:002012-08-30T17:42:07.621-07:00To be fair, he realizes what he said just a second...To be fair, he realizes what he said just a second later and tries to retract it. He may be morally challenged at that point, but he's not stupid. Ivanahttp://boot-the-grime.livejournal.com/profilenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-52121124434019002742012-08-30T17:39:29.194-07:002012-08-30T17:39:29.194-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Ivanahttp://boot-the-grime.livejournal.com/profilenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-33696047901880145462012-08-30T13:44:42.823-07:002012-08-30T13:44:42.823-07:00Anya's a difficult case because it's never...Anya's a difficult case because it's never stated expressly that she has a soul now. I think she does, but as you say she seems to look for guidance from Xander rather than being inner directed. Assuming Anya has a soul, but that Anyanka didn't, I would tend to see Anya as unlike Dahmer. I say this because I do think the show makes an intrinsic distinction about the importance of the soul (I explain this at length in my post on Amends). Anya has the ability to use her soul for guidance and she's learning, but hasn't yet gotten there. In contrast, a vampire who's neither chipped nor souled lacks the ability altogether (which is how we're apparently supposed to see Dahmer, I guess). <br /><br />As for Angel, that's really the whole question raised by the episode. It's what causes Dawn to say "same diff", while Buffy relies on the soul canon. <br /><br />MAJOR SPOILERS FOR FUTURE EPISODES<br /><br />I think at this point that we have to accept that the show itself opted for the soul canon (much to my regret at the time). This means that Angel was not like Alex/Dahmer. It also means that Spike wasn't either once he got his soul restored. The comparison really only makes sense when Spike is chipped, and even then Alex is a better example.<br /><br />A better comparison for Dahmer, or an un-conditioned Alex, is possibly Warren. Referring to chipped Spike as "Dahmer" has the flaws I noted in response to State of Siege above: it doesn't account for the chip; and it doesn't account for his love of Buffy. I included the quote because that sort of thing got said so often.<br /><br />As for Spike's journey, he's one of my favorite characters, and it's much more interesting to me than Anya's in part for the reasons you mention. Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.com