tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post4482743507505553818..comments2024-01-15T02:19:13.716-08:00Comments on Fragments Of My Imagination: AngelMark Fieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-21606165218625742592020-11-24T11:38:32.664-08:002020-11-24T11:38:32.664-08:00Good point... I think I was being overly cautious ...Good point... I think I was being overly cautious about spoilers because my first couple comments didn't adhere to that rule, although even in those you'd have to stretch to call them spoilers.<br /><br />Also good point about the timeline, and I'm guessing that Joss indeed did not have a fully planned backstory at that point.Shaun M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-53645067471531363442020-11-24T08:08:21.441-08:002020-11-24T08:08:21.441-08:00Your point about Buffy and Angel taking on guilt i...Your point about Buffy and Angel taking on guilt is very true for both of them. I think they both carry it so far that we could see it as a flaw. But it's certainly consistent with the idea that taking responsibility for one's own actions is a key to BtVS and probably AtS too. That's a theme I'll pick up in discussing later episodes.<br /><br />As for the curse, I don't think it was SPOILER<br /><br />Jenny's uncle. He's too young from what we understand as the chronology. But yeah, it would have been good to see the reasoning that went into that decision. Given Joss' vagueness on this issue, maybe he just didn't have it entirely fleshed out.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-44954962097927776112020-11-24T06:23:55.647-08:002020-11-24T06:23:55.647-08:00I should clarify, I know there is that flashback s...I should clarify, I know there is that flashback scene showing Angel actually receiving the curse. I believe there is also a scene where they briefly discuss the curse itself; I don't remember any discussion about why that particular curse was chosen being shown, however, which is what I was referring to. Thanks!Shaun M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-23675435496006442482020-11-24T05:24:08.109-08:002020-11-24T05:24:08.109-08:00(((SPOILERS BELOW!!!)))
The second thing I w...(((SPOILERS BELOW!!!)))<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />The second thing I wanted to say is about the curse itself. I would love to see a prequel-esque or flashback moment to where the Rumanian clan that Jenny is a part of (the "gypsies" I think? although I'm not sure that's the correct term these days) chooses what the curse should be. Was it a process? A vote? A singular leader that chose it? Although it makes it seem like Jenny's uncle chose it, I don't think there is any canon on this. I wouldn't imagine Jenny's uncle just randomly chose the whole "one moment of true happiness" thing at random without consultation or votes. So it makes me wonder how much thought they put into the fact that Angel will already have an ostracized social life just by virtue of being a vampire, so giving him his soul and therefore ability to have remorse is doubly bad, because as you mentioned, he has to deal with it mostly alone and at night. On first blush, I remember thinking that the curse was kind of random, as I think many people do. But it's funny... over the years, I find more and more reasons to think that this may have been the most torturous curse they really could have put on him. I would've loved to see more about that process. <br /><br />I never delved into S8/the comics/manga, so I'm not sure if they ever go back to this. Doubtful since the series moves on from Angel pretty much completely after S3. Cheers.<br />Shaun M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-14454096257783428962020-11-24T05:23:16.331-08:002020-11-24T05:23:16.331-08:00So annoying, I tried filling it out but my compute...So annoying, I tried filling it out but my computer bugged. Anyway, this is Shaun M. and that was PART 1 of my comment.Shaun M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-75727474317690290352020-11-24T05:22:10.937-08:002020-11-24T05:22:10.937-08:00OK, my initial response was too long for one post....OK, my initial response was too long for one post. I have split it into a non-spoiler portion here, and then a second one will be made and marked as spoilers.<br />___________________________________________<br /><br />Great. I don't think there's much I can add to your analysis, unless I were to get extremely detailed and go through some of the lines you didn't mention. Maybe one day, but not today! <br /><br />One thing I did want to mention, relates to this paragraph: "Yeah, true remorse is a real curse. It explains why Angel is so socially awkward, why he was stumped when Buffy asked him if he knew what friends were (The Harvest) and why, as Darla says, “for a hundred years [he’s] not had a moment's peace…”. I think it also explains why Angel was willing to let Buffy kill him. He knew he had nearly given in to temptation when Darla offered him Joyce (and think about the implications of that in the context of vampires and sex!), so he felt that he still deserved punishment."<br /><br />I love that you pointed out this self-inflicted, in a way, guilt that Angel likely feels from these events and the temptation of having Joyce w/in reach. I'm not going to touch the sexual implications, although I definitely think that's interesting and worthy of discussion, but I wanted to compare guilt between Angel and Buffy and relate it back to the curse that was given to Angel.<br /><br />Throughout the show we see both Angel and Buffy continually misplace their guilt, in my opinion. There are *so* many interesting parallels and differences between their two personalities, but one thing that I often find in common is that there are many times where one could make the argument that both Buffy and Angel shouldn't be feeling bad or guilty about the thing they are guilting themselves over, but both go hard on themselves anyway. This contrasts to the many times where they probably *should* be feeling guilty about something, but they cover it up instead, kind of like they are using the times where they are placing unwarranted blame on themselves as a substitute for the truly blame-heavy times. I'm not sure this was explicitly written into the show, but somehow the characters appeared to evolve organically to really fail at providing accurate feedback to their own selves. Or perhaps, burying the truth of the feedback beneath the surface. <br /><br />To me, this indicates a lack of control over their own lives (a pretty obvious trope given their circumstances), and an in attempts to be fair and just people (because they both naturally are, sometimes to a fault) WHILE maintaining control of their environment, they end up blaming themselves where blame really isn't due/useful. In time, it tends to then compensate for other wrongdoings, allowing them to sweep under the rug the blame that they maybe should take on because that blame isn't convenient. Again, it's a form of control to make up for a perceived lack of it, and one can see this trait in a lot of highly intelligent and talented people, such as Buffy and Angel. To me it really comes through in the early show, especially in S2 and S3. But I can also find examples in S6 and S7. As the episodes go on I can point out more of these. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-81820556858321904562012-06-11T15:24:34.062-07:002012-06-11T15:24:34.062-07:00This show talks a lot about right vs wrong or good...This show talks a lot about right vs wrong or good vs evil, but I prefer what you sort of touched upon: selfless vs selfish. A soul, or conscience, gives a being the capacity to work in service of others instead of merely one's own self-interests. I appreciate how the show presents this dichotomy (or continuum, really) with increasingly better finesse as it goes on.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13550060758900308947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-26359330228199161882011-11-22T14:39:32.266-08:002011-11-22T14:39:32.266-08:00SPOILERS, sort of...
I third the Darla arc love.SPOILERS, sort of...<br /><br />I third the Darla arc love.Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07672868860164723191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-51799882094974346662011-11-19T07:14:07.878-08:002011-11-19T07:14:07.878-08:00SPOILERS
I agree with you on the Darla arc. IMO, ...SPOILERS<br /><br />I agree with you on the Darla arc. IMO, it's the best part of AtS until S5.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-14007867987766767522011-11-19T02:54:28.172-08:002011-11-19T02:54:28.172-08:00Some Spoilers
Angel's story doesn't move ...Some Spoilers<br /><br />Angel's story doesn't move me as much as Buffy's, either, although I find elements of it very fascinating (I love most of the Darla story, including the non-Angelus dark Angel).<br /><br />Looking forward to the Amends post.<br /><br />Cheers.aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09511776738005115468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-39757583558397556652011-11-18T15:19:33.937-08:002011-11-18T15:19:33.937-08:00SIGNIFICANT SPOILERS FOR ALL FUTURE EPISODES
You ...SIGNIFICANT SPOILERS FOR ALL FUTURE EPISODES<br /><br />You didn't misremember -- I'm not a fan of AtS. That doesn't mean I hate the show or anything (just Connor :)). It just means Angel's story doesn't move me like Buffy's does (and that I have some issues with other aspects of the show).<br /><br />I've thought a lot about why this is, and I think it's my view of the soul canon which is the sticking point. This is getting far ahead of the story, and I wasn't going to address this until Amends. I started to do it here, got half way through, and realized I really need to lay it all out in order to be clear. So if you can wait that long, I promise to explain in detail.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-29542401540535090512011-11-18T12:26:09.055-08:002011-11-18T12:26:09.055-08:00so . . . I'm back. I just wanted to say that w...so . . . I'm back. I just wanted to say that what you've written about remorse and Angel is really intriguing.<br /><br />SPOILERS for later Buffy and . . . that other show.<br /><br />I was surprised to see on the AV Club that you're not really a fan of Angel (the show) (perhaps I misunderstood). You can definitely put me in the camp of one who prefers BtVS, and I can't imagine myself doing full - or even mostly full - rewatches of Angel like I have (and presumably will again) with Buffy. But the character of Angel is fascinating, what he goes through - both on Buffy and on his own show - and how his feelings of remorse affect both his actions and the audiences reaction to him. <br /><br />Just one example would be the SO2 Angelus-arc of Buffy. At first it's thrilling (that drag off the cigarette), then it's heartbreaking (his treatment of Buffy), and then it's truly horrifying and revolting (Passion). And yet the show has done such a good job of laying out Angel's situation of remorse (as well as elements of Buffy's love for him), that when he "awakens" in those final moments of S02, all that anger at him washes away BECAUSE we know how remorseful he'll be once he wakes up to what he's done. That's part of the power of Buffy's final decision with the sword. She knows it, too.<br /><br />Another example is the Connor arc from Angel. It's highly problematic in many ways, but the notion that after all he's gone through with Darla Angel is willing to take Connor and raise him to "prove" to himself that he's a "good person" - that all stems from his sense of remorse and his deep deep desire to make up for it. That's why Holtz's actions in S03's "Sleep Tight" and Angel's reaction to them are so heartbreaking. And much more . . .<br /><br />Sorry for the lengthy post . . . you got me thinking.aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09511776738005115468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-31815161057332713772011-11-17T12:24:55.798-08:002011-11-17T12:24:55.798-08:00I've had it for years. In fact, I can't re...I've had it for years. In fact, I can't remember now where I got it. I'm pretty sure I just bought the CD and ripped it. I can't find it right now because all my CDs are in storage. <br /><br />34 cents sounds like a great deal, even with the shipping.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-26702536234039389612011-11-17T12:09:09.754-08:002011-11-17T12:09:09.754-08:00mark - have you had that tune a long time? i did ...mark - have you had that tune a long time? i did a search on itunes and amazon, and got nothing as an mp3. i did however find the album it's on, on sale for .34 (yes, you read that right... .34!) with $2.98 shipping it's a little pricey for 1 song, but i'm hoping i like other stuff on it too. <br />and i'm such a sucker for that final scene. the outline of the cross on his chest still takes my breath away.stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15115739953216243041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-54443094741873495812011-11-17T11:44:12.110-08:002011-11-17T11:44:12.110-08:00Thank you, love the blog!Thank you, love the blog!Leensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-91139960982123763772011-11-17T10:47:09.921-08:002011-11-17T10:47:09.921-08:00Anonymous, that's a great point.Anonymous, that's a great point.Mark Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661801011668244109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-70856639400963860792011-11-17T10:32:13.836-08:002011-11-17T10:32:13.836-08:00The stuff here on remorse is great, and I hope to ...The stuff here on remorse is great, and I hope to come back and say a bit more (infant child at home!). But just wanted to say that this was the first episode that really "did it" for me, that indicated that BtVS was trying to do things that TV didn't normally attempt (a lot of it has to do with what you outline above re: good/bad and how just having a soul doesn't make you good). And no wonder you're a sucker for the final scene - nobody I've shown this to yet isn't. It's iconic and works on so many levels that I know 40-year-old men and 17-year-old girls and Americans and non-Americans alike who have been quite moved by it.aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09511776738005115468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5913356479406165601.post-45426070790396399562011-11-17T10:30:45.625-08:002011-11-17T10:30:45.625-08:00There is another difference between removing the p...There is another difference between removing the possession of Xander and killing vampires. When the hyena is removed from Xander, he returns to his old normal self, no super enhanced animal like powers. However, even when a vampire has his/her soul returned they retain all of their vampire-fueled abailities, super speed and strength (and those martial arts move they all seem to know)so even with a soul you ahve someone with enhanced super human abilities and no way of knowing if they will use those abilities for good or evil. Thus there is an inherent difference and a danger to allowing vampires to live (with some exceptions) while the same cannot be said for a depossessed human.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com