Happy Birthday to Buffy indeed!! I think seeing this makes all of us feel old, haha! I also think now is definitely a good time to focus on the entire Buffyverse and not the creator, for current-news reasons. I just have a few thoughts below.
General note to those reading this: I have been purposefully vague about these details, so if you don't know what I'm referring to, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. But if you're curious and/or like to stay up on the news, then seek out Charisma Carpenter's Twitter.
Speaking on this depressing topic, I did just want to comment that I've been heartened seeing the way most Buffy fans (and JW show fans in general) have been reacting to Charisma's recent revelations. [Of course these aren't technically revelations as much as a long-overdue admission of abuses suffered by the cast that we only had murmurings about prior to this.]
This topic has already been discussed within your blog, Mark, and I'm glad to see that most people are coming down on the view most of us have -- that a work of art can indeed be separated by its creator and still be appreciated, especially if that work itself contains messages we want to keep in the zeitgeist (which I believe BTVS and Angel definitely have).
I think we're also lucky to be fans of this particular type of medium, as obviously this story and world has been created by many, MANY people, each with their own contribution and creativity put into its creation. Thus, we don't even have to do any mental gymnastics to justify enjoyment of the show(s) while still being able to condemn disgusting actions of those in power, as in reality the show proper has little to do with him.
Anyway, nothing you haven't heard before, but thought it should be mentioned here since it is kind of a big story right now.
I hope I get back to the show survey soon, Mark! I have been very busy with life things such as a dog who just had an operation and a new career path. Cheers!
I'm glad to hear from you again. I was worried something happened, but the new career path sounds like a good thing. I hope your dog is ok.
I agree with you on separating art and artist. Lots of great artists have been real assholes and it's a shame if it "has" to be that way. The good thing about loving a TV show is that so many people are involved in its creation that my view of one individual isn't likely to change that.
Always great to hear from you, too. The dog is surprisingly doing well for a 14 y/o... she managed to swallow one of those large blender-bottle mixing balls (yes, the steel ones, idek how it happened even as I watched her do it in what seemed like slow motion) and they had to cut her stomach open after the scope got stuck. :/ Have had her as a rescue for 8 years and she's never swallowed anything dangerous before! C'est la vie. Thankful that she seems back to her old self and even more thankful for the talented Boston animal surgeons that helped.
Also, you should know that I've been pushing your book in YouTube reaction comments as much as possible, haha. Not because I'm worried about your sales, but because I think everyone interested in the Buffyverse should have a copy of it on hand. Thanks again for all your work. Now that I've gotten further into TPN's Buffy videos, I see that he is a aware of your work as well and promotes it! So cool!
I aim to get back on track with S3 later this week. I'm sure you've noticed by now I usually post on Tuesdays, but that will become more varied soon. Have a great day and week!
I watched Buffy and Angel together in airdate order for the first time last summer, and it just confirmed for me how fantastic both series are, and made me aware of significant thematic connections between individual episodes that it was impossible to see when viewing them separately.
The recent revelations about Joss are sad, but whatever they might say about him as an individual I agree that they are largely irrelevant to the content of the show. The examples of great artists throughout history who were jerks and worse (Caravaggio was a murderer) are many. That doesn't excuse anything whatsoever, it just means that the skills of being and artist and the skills of being good person aren't the same thing. The artist can have insight and understanding that they can't put into practice in their own life.
I object strongly to those who try to import this behavior into the show to claim that the show was somehow "toxic". For instance, there was recently a ridiculous WaPo article about how the show "amounted to a reductive, masculinized conception of what it means to be a forceful woman.... Was the show ever really invested in revolutionizing the narratives of victimhood? Or was it primarily about putting desirable young women on display?" For one thing, that's a bad interpretation of the show and of Buffy's character. It is actually rather offensive, because it totally ignores Buffy's profound intuition and insight ("I think it's bloody brilliant"), her psychological complexity and desire to be a normal girl, and the fact that a major theme of the show is that it's primarily her human connections with others that keep her alive, something the show explored in great detail. It reduces her to a butt-kicker who unthinkingly goes action hero at the first opportunity. That's lazy and false. For another, they put James Marsters "on display" far more than anyone else. The famous moment is "Xander in a speedo." The idea that the show was just about putting "desirable young women on display" is totally false.
Worse still, the author makes a to me incomprehensible-but-nefarious-sounding argument about Buffy's character arc in the later seasons. "Buffy’s revivification traumatizes her, leading to self-harm, depression and emotional calluses that play out until the series finale. It’s a narrative ethos that suggests that maturing into womanhood means growing emotionally numb.... It’s a vision of empowerment riven with loss, an argument that women’s psychological stamina should cost us our ability to feel fully and deeply." Again, bad interpretation. Not only does she completely ignore what actually happens in the finale (which she should, since it completely undermines her entire thesis), she completely misreads the purpose of Buffy's struggle. It's just a fact that LIFE for all people of any gender is "riven with loss". That Buffy as a show confronts that fact directly and forces the main character to come to terms with it makes the show true, not toxic. Not only does growing up come with loss and consequences, so does power, and a huge amount of the show is dedicated to exploring that. The totally ignored finale in fact explores a way for Buffy to wield power in a way that is healing instead of isolating and benumbing! The author would really benefit from reading your book and jettisoning the didactic, propaganda-fied view of the purpose of art that has unfortunately become prominent. And of course, if Whedon had written a show in which Buffy did not lose something in her struggle with the difficulties of growing up or the responsibilities and consequences of wielding power, the show a) would not have been great or resonant, because it would not have been true, and b) would probably be attacked by the same author or similar authors for showing a sanitized picture of women's experiences. The final irony is that Marti Noxon was one of the primary writers behind especially season six, when Buffy's emotional numbness was at its peak.
What I hope is that people continue to watch the show, read your book, think about it for themselves, and get everything there is out of this unique and powerful series. I hope they find that art is more than uncomplicated moral allegories. I hope that Charisma Carpenter finds some release and healing from having spoken up, as with anyone else who was hurt. I hope that Joss reckons with this and takes the responsibility that Buffy did for her mistakes. I hope that he starts on a path to make amends and find redemption like Angel (well, maybe not EXACTLY like Angel). And lastly, I hope Buffy had a happy birthday (for once).
Excellent comments. I agree with them entirely. One more point I'd add, because I've seen people argue this, is that the displays of misogyny and such on the show are NOT evidence of something wrong with Joss or the show, but are there to force us to confront the evil and reject it.
Completely agree with your analysis of that article. Very well-written counter to that bad interpretation.
The only credit I'll give the author is that, truly, Buffy is probably the most tortured modern heroine that we have in any sort of popular media; I don't know of any other shows where the lead goes through as much trauma and struggle. So in this light, I can understand why most normies (read: non-Buffyverse folk) could see this as a slight against Buffy/women, given how intense the show gets. (*pushes up glasses* Buuuuuut... Buffy still comes out of all the craziness pretty much on top, while not shying away from her womanhood, so I fail to see how this ends up coloring the show as a misogynistic fever-dream such as the author tries to imply, when it's obviously a story of empowerment and maturation).
It's hard for people who set out with an agenda to see the forest from the trees. I can only think of a handful of times (mostly in S1 & S2) where an odd comment or two in the script might be tinged with misogyny, but even in those times it usually ends of either being made fun of, or used as a dramatic tool to impart how bad that behavior is. Which, again, is explicitly anti-misogynistic.
The writers that worked with Joss all have strong personalities and strong minds; it takes a bad-faith (or ill-informed) reading of the show to think that somehow one or two borderline instances immediately remove the overall positive message found in almost 144 hours of written dialogue and staging (with much more if Angel is considered).
It's the whole, "Well Nazis also wanted to give [white, non-Jewish] people homes, therefore all socialists who want to give people homes are Nazis" level of cherry-picking.
Happy Birthday to Buffy indeed!! I think seeing this makes all of us feel old, haha! I also think now is definitely a good time to focus on the entire Buffyverse and not the creator, for current-news reasons. I just have a few thoughts below.
ReplyDeleteGeneral note to those reading this: I have been purposefully vague about these details, so if you don't know what I'm referring to, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. But if you're curious and/or like to stay up on the news, then seek out Charisma Carpenter's Twitter.
Speaking on this depressing topic, I did just want to comment that I've been heartened seeing the way most Buffy fans (and JW show fans in general) have been reacting to Charisma's recent revelations. [Of course these aren't technically revelations as much as a long-overdue admission of abuses suffered by the cast that we only had murmurings about prior to this.]
This topic has already been discussed within your blog, Mark, and I'm glad to see that most people are coming down on the view most of us have -- that a work of art can indeed be separated by its creator and still be appreciated, especially if that work itself contains messages we want to keep in the zeitgeist (which I believe BTVS and Angel definitely have).
I think we're also lucky to be fans of this particular type of medium, as obviously this story and world has been created by many, MANY people, each with their own contribution and creativity put into its creation. Thus, we don't even have to do any mental gymnastics to justify enjoyment of the show(s) while still being able to condemn disgusting actions of those in power, as in reality the show proper has little to do with him.
Anyway, nothing you haven't heard before, but thought it should be mentioned here since it is kind of a big story right now.
I hope I get back to the show survey soon, Mark! I have been very busy with life things such as a dog who just had an operation and a new career path. Cheers!
I'm glad to hear from you again. I was worried something happened, but the new career path sounds like a good thing. I hope your dog is ok.
DeleteI agree with you on separating art and artist. Lots of great artists have been real assholes and it's a shame if it "has" to be that way. The good thing about loving a TV show is that so many people are involved in its creation that my view of one individual isn't likely to change that.
Always great to hear from you, too. The dog is surprisingly doing well for a 14 y/o... she managed to swallow one of those large blender-bottle mixing balls (yes, the steel ones, idek how it happened even as I watched her do it in what seemed like slow motion) and they had to cut her stomach open after the scope got stuck. :/ Have had her as a rescue for 8 years and she's never swallowed anything dangerous before! C'est la vie. Thankful that she seems back to her old self and even more thankful for the talented Boston animal surgeons that helped.
DeleteAlso, you should know that I've been pushing your book in YouTube reaction comments as much as possible, haha. Not because I'm worried about your sales, but because I think everyone interested in the Buffyverse should have a copy of it on hand. Thanks again for all your work. Now that I've gotten further into TPN's Buffy videos, I see that he is a aware of your work as well and promotes it! So cool!
I aim to get back on track with S3 later this week. I'm sure you've noticed by now I usually post on Tuesdays, but that will become more varied soon. Have a great day and week!
I very much appreciate the recs. Look forward to your thoughts, especially on Amends.
ReplyDeleteI watched Buffy and Angel together in airdate order for the first time last summer, and it just confirmed for me how fantastic both series are, and made me aware of significant thematic connections between individual episodes that it was impossible to see when viewing them separately.
ReplyDeleteThe recent revelations about Joss are sad, but whatever they might say about him as an individual I agree that they are largely irrelevant to the content of the show. The examples of great artists throughout history who were jerks and worse (Caravaggio was a murderer) are many. That doesn't excuse anything whatsoever, it just means that the skills of being and artist and the skills of being good person aren't the same thing. The artist can have insight and understanding that they can't put into practice in their own life.
I object strongly to those who try to import this behavior into the show to claim that the show was somehow "toxic". For instance, there was recently a ridiculous WaPo article about how the show "amounted to a reductive, masculinized conception of what it means to be a forceful woman.... Was the show ever really invested in revolutionizing the narratives of victimhood? Or was it primarily about putting desirable young women on display?" For one thing, that's a bad interpretation of the show and of Buffy's character. It is actually rather offensive, because it totally ignores Buffy's profound intuition and insight ("I think it's bloody brilliant"), her psychological complexity and desire to be a normal girl, and the fact that a major theme of the show is that it's primarily her human connections with others that keep her alive, something the show explored in great detail. It reduces her to a butt-kicker who unthinkingly goes action hero at the first opportunity. That's lazy and false. For another, they put James Marsters "on display" far more than anyone else. The famous moment is "Xander in a speedo." The idea that the show was just about putting "desirable young women on display" is totally false.
Worse still, the author makes a to me incomprehensible-but-nefarious-sounding argument about Buffy's character arc in the later seasons. "Buffy’s revivification traumatizes her, leading to self-harm, depression and emotional calluses that play out until the series finale. It’s a narrative ethos that suggests that maturing into womanhood means growing emotionally numb.... It’s a vision of empowerment riven with loss, an argument that women’s psychological stamina should cost us our ability to feel fully and deeply." Again, bad interpretation. Not only does she completely ignore what actually happens in the finale (which she should, since it completely undermines her entire thesis), she completely misreads the purpose of Buffy's struggle. It's just a fact that LIFE for all people of any gender is "riven with loss". That Buffy as a show confronts that fact directly and forces the main character to come to terms with it makes the show true, not toxic. Not only does growing up come with loss and consequences, so does power, and a huge amount of the show is dedicated to exploring that. The totally ignored finale in fact explores a way for Buffy to wield power in a way that is healing instead of isolating and benumbing! The author would really benefit from reading your book and jettisoning the didactic, propaganda-fied view of the purpose of art that has unfortunately become prominent. And of course, if Whedon had written a show in which Buffy did not lose something in her struggle with the difficulties of growing up or the responsibilities and consequences of wielding power, the show a) would not have been great or resonant, because it would not have been true, and b) would probably be attacked by the same author or similar authors for showing a sanitized picture of women's experiences. The final irony is that Marti Noxon was one of the primary writers behind especially season six, when Buffy's emotional numbness was at its peak.
ReplyDeleteWhat I hope is that people continue to watch the show, read your book, think about it for themselves, and get everything there is out of this unique and powerful series. I hope they find that art is more than uncomplicated moral allegories. I hope that Charisma Carpenter finds some release and healing from having spoken up, as with anyone else who was hurt. I hope that Joss reckons with this and takes the responsibility that Buffy did for her mistakes. I hope that he starts on a path to make amends and find redemption like Angel (well, maybe not EXACTLY like Angel). And lastly, I hope Buffy had a happy birthday (for once).
Excellent comments. I agree with them entirely. One more point I'd add, because I've seen people argue this, is that the displays of misogyny and such on the show are NOT evidence of something wrong with Joss or the show, but are there to force us to confront the evil and reject it.
DeleteCompletely agree with your analysis of that article. Very well-written counter to that bad interpretation.
DeleteThe only credit I'll give the author is that, truly, Buffy is probably the most tortured modern heroine that we have in any sort of popular media; I don't know of any other shows where the lead goes through as much trauma and struggle. So in this light, I can understand why most normies (read: non-Buffyverse folk) could see this as a slight against Buffy/women, given how intense the show gets. (*pushes up glasses* Buuuuuut... Buffy still comes out of all the craziness pretty much on top, while not shying away from her womanhood, so I fail to see how this ends up coloring the show as a misogynistic fever-dream such as the author tries to imply, when it's obviously a story of empowerment and maturation).
It's hard for people who set out with an agenda to see the forest from the trees. I can only think of a handful of times (mostly in S1 & S2) where an odd comment or two in the script might be tinged with misogyny, but even in those times it usually ends of either being made fun of, or used as a dramatic tool to impart how bad that behavior is. Which, again, is explicitly anti-misogynistic.
The writers that worked with Joss all have strong personalities and strong minds; it takes a bad-faith (or ill-informed) reading of the show to think that somehow one or two borderline instances immediately remove the overall positive message found in almost 144 hours of written dialogue and staging (with much more if Angel is considered).
It's the whole, "Well Nazis also wanted to give [white, non-Jewish] people homes, therefore all socialists who want to give people homes are Nazis" level of cherry-picking.